Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » The Pointsfix and the Game Listings
| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #408436 is a reply to message #408400] |
Mon, 26 October 2009 15:43   |
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Spoony
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nah, i think they've given that up for the most part
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #408505 is a reply to message #408387] |
Tue, 27 October 2009 03:45 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| Herr wrote on Mon, 26 October 2009 18:54 |
Why would someone hand this power over from a person who, as you stated, has never abused it before to a team that contains a few people who have proven their self not to be trustworthy at all, in the past. A person who deletes her own topics questioning this same matter where obviously all of the replies vote against her, or someone who has always been supported by the Jellycomm but decided to suddenly change his mind and backstab the community for it contains a few people who disagree with his opinion.
Im not saying TT is bad or can't be trusted, not even close, it contains several close friends who I do honor for all their efforts for the community.
I just find it a hard decision giving these nicknames to a group that contains a few people of who I think, can't handle the power. Especially when they currently remain in the hands of someone who I would trust with my most valuable belongings.
Considering the EA support argument, we both know EA couldn't care less about Westwood's old stuff. Of course they will welcome the first group with open arms who offer support to a game that is bleeding to death. I do not really consider that trustworthy.
F.Y.I. This is not meant as hate towards TT. Like I said, TT contains several friends who I believe are really using TT as the right way to fight for the existence of Renegade and are not power-happy or anything like that. I really hope they keep up the excellent work they have put in the renegade community so far.
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That's why it would perhaps be a good decision to create a commission that gets to set rules on this topic after which they can judge all communities in regard to the set rules. The communities that score best will get the highest (available) nick and so forth.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #408620 is a reply to message #408596] |
Wed, 28 October 2009 00:43 |
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Goztow
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[quote title=Jerad wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 01:01]Herr wrote on Mon, 26 October 2009 11:54
If EA was really with us they would have given us the actual Ren source. All EA sees us as is a group of people that will clean up some of their half assed shit.
To be fair, we don't know if they didn't give the source code to TT. I would never release the source code to the public if I were EA. Cheaters would find way too nice  .
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #408666 is a reply to message #408663] |
Wed, 28 October 2009 10:04 |
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Spoony
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the idea that EA would give away control at this level - source code, control of patches etc - the idea that EA would give it lightly is just ridiculous. sure they don't care about the game as much as they ought to...
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #408772 is a reply to message #408666] |
Thu, 29 October 2009 11:21 |
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Jerad2142
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| Goztow wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 01:43 |
| Jerad Gray wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 01:01 |
If EA was really with us they would have given us the actual Ren source. All EA sees us as is a group of people that will clean up some of their half assed shit.
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To be fair, we don't know if they didn't give the source code to TT. I would never release the source code to the public if I were EA. Cheaters would find way too nice .
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LOL, only like 300 people at most on-line, don't see why anyone even cares about cheaters anymore. All the servers that I've ever played on are so laggy that everyone could be cheating and it'd still seem the same. Only time I have ever been able to see that someone was cheating in game was a time when some person was blowing up the harvester with one pistol hit, and that was years ago. And please not that I didn't say release the source to everyone, I just meant TT team, which they didn't otherwise you guys wouldn't be having to reverse engineer another engine to mimic renegades engine.
Anyways, by not giving you the source EA can deny any responsibility if something does go wrong, IE: makes it easier for people to cheat, or everyone quits renegade because more people whom play online like the game as is then you think, type deals.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 11:04 |
the idea that EA would give away control at this level - source code, control of patches etc - the idea that EA would give it lightly is just ridiculous. sure they don't care about the game as much as they ought to...
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I know of several companies that give out open source for the game engine once the game's usefulness has passed, Relic, Valve, and I don't play many games so there are many more I'm sure.
| Crimson wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 10:46 |
Yep, and if they did give us the source code or parts of it, we certainly wouldn't be allowed to tell anyone about it.
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I hope to god you guys don't have the source, things should be going along a lot faster if you did, EA throws out plenty of half assed games in a years time, all you guys are doing is touching one of them up. So I think not, I think EA has forced you guys to do it the hard way, thus I can understand this taking a while.
[Updated on: Thu, 29 October 2009 11:30] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409194 is a reply to message #408835] |
Tue, 03 November 2009 06:44 |
tanzying
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To me, Spoony seems to be more interested in winning the argument on why jelly should give up the a00 names, rather than actually getting jelly to give the names up. I believe that the latter will not automatically follow if he succeeds in the former.
Many people have posted against Spoony, citing his past behaviour in other debates (the impression I get is that this mostly refers to the pointfix debates) as a reason why his opinion should not be considered. Some have also included insults directed at him. I believe that these points, whether justified or unjustified, are irrelevant to the topic of discussion.
However, Spoony's reactions to such posts have been consistent. When he feels that someone has wrongly accused him, he responds immediately and heatedly to defend himself and demonstrate his displeasure. Occasionally, he will also send his opponents messages with sacarstic and scathing tones (examples would include sentences ending with 'eh?' , 'hmmm?', 'excuse me, but no'). He is entitled to do all this. It's his personal opinion and personal style of argument.
Another thing Spoony consistantly does is to state that TT is more qualified than the Jelly community to wield the authority of the a00 nicknames, because he thinks that TT is respected for their work on renegade and was accomodating to dissenters on the pointsfix debate, wheras Jelly has not been so accomodating on the a00 name issue. I cannot say whether such a view is correct, especially since I haven't even read the pointsfix debate. Spoony also consistently uses words like 'appaling', 'ridiculous', 'despicable' etc to describe how the Jelly community has been treating him. Again, nothing wrong with this. It's his personal opinion and personal style of argument.
People do not appreciate being called appaling, ridiculous, despicable, liars, [insert negative term here], whether they have actually been so or not. Similarly, people also do not appreciate being told that they are being unreasonable and that the other party is being 'the better man'. It provokes an instinctive angry reaction in them, the very same reaction that I believe Spoony experiences when he is charged by what he views as an unfair accusation.
Angry people start to dislike the person who made them angry. It's human nature. Whether they are angry for a logical reason or not is another issue altogether.
Spoony may not mind people being angry at him or disliking him. But what he DOES want is for Jelly to give up the a00 names. This can be done either through EA or XWIS intervention (unlikely), or if Jelly himself decides to do so. If Jelly is angry at him, why should he? Even if it is logically the fair thing to do. Emotions decide a fair portion of human action as well.
(This paragraph is entirely my hypothesis) Spoony may have directed the bulk of his replies to the Jelly community, and not Jelly personally. But whether or not he has directly angered Jelly himself, I think it is possible that every reply Spoony makes to a Jelly community member subconsciously angers Jelly himself. Firstly, the *JELLY* community bears Jelly's own name. Secondly, Jelly likely knows and thinks well of some of the community members that have been offended by Spoony, and humans tend to stand up for their friends instinctively. Thirdly, Spoony makes a few statements that seem to generalize the Jelly community, of which Jelly himself is a part of. (/hypothesis)
Spoony, you could have discussed this privately with Jelly first. I believe that one big reason why Jelly is angry with you is because you chose to discuss this matter with massive publicity. I dont know what kind of relationship the two of you have in renegade/real life. But surely it is possible to be a little accomodating on your side? If it was really important to you that the issue be publicised so that public scrutiny can ensure it's not a shady deal behind closed doors, you could have first privately persuaded Jelly to the point where he would be prepared to come out on your side OUT OF GOODWILL when you eventually went public. You could then have all the public scrutiny you wanted.
People keep telling us, "Jelly owns the names, he can do whatever he likes with them". If jelly, OUT OF GOODWILL, thinks that relinquishing the a00 names (or whatever compromise can be reached) is a good idea, this statement would not be so problematic.
Spoony, whether you win the logical debate or not, the only way you'll get Jelly to give up the a00 names is through positive emotions. You talk about TT having been the 'better man' in the pointsfix debates. I don't know, I wasn't there. Why don't you be an even better man by not trying to rub this into your opponents? Why let them bait you into angry outbursts which they will only use to further derail this topic? Is the Renegade community, or defending your logic and yourself against character assasination attempts, more important? Stop creating so much anger, so that people can think with logic instead of emotions.
I think its great that you are willing to spend so much effort and time on the Renegade community, doing what you believe to be in its best interests. It's earned my respect, and I wish you good fortune in your endeavours. I offer my opinion and suggestion in hopes that it will expedite your good work.
tl;dr. Spoony, you need to win more hearts and less minds.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409195 is a reply to message #409194] |
Tue, 03 November 2009 07:12 |
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Spoony
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| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Many people have posted against Spoony, citing his past behaviour in other debates (the impression I get is that this mostly refers to the pointfix debates) as a reason why his opinion should not be considered.
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and since I keep asking what i've actually done wrong in these past debates and nobody can answer, i hope you can see it for the bullshit cop-out it is.
excuse me, but i never refused to consider anybody's opinion on the pointsfix NO MATTER HOW pathetically they acted.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
However, Spoony's reactions to such posts have been consistent. When he feels that someone has wrongly accused him, he responds immediately and heatedly to defend himself and demonstrate his displeasure. Occasionally, he will also send his opponents messages with sacarstic and scathing tones (examples would include sentences ending with 'eh?' , 'hmmm?', 'excuse me, but no'). He is entitled to do all this. It's his personal opinion and personal style of argument.
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all true, and i don't see what's wrong with defending myself when i'm attacked.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Another thing Spoony consistantly does is to state that TT is more qualified than the Jelly community to wield the authority of the a00 nicknames, because he thinks that TT is respected for their work on renegade and was accomodating to dissenters on the pointsfix debate, wheras Jelly has not been so accomodating on the a00 name issue. I cannot say whether such a view is correct, especially since I haven't even read the pointsfix debate. Spoony also consistently uses words like 'appaling', 'ridiculous', 'despicable' etc to describe how the Jelly community has been treating him. Again, nothing wrong with this. It's his personal opinion and personal style of argument.
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again, true.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
People do not appreciate being called appaling, ridiculous, despicable, liars, [insert negative term here], whether they have actually been so or not.
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you lose me at "whether they have actually been so or not". wtf? listen to what you're saying. you're saying if someone cheats or whatever, you shouldn't say so in case you hurt their feelings because then you'll be the bad guy?
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Similarly, people also do not appreciate being told that they are being unreasonable and that the other party is being 'the better man'. It provokes an instinctive angry reaction in them,
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true, of course.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
the very same reaction that I believe Spoony experiences when he is charged by what he views as an unfair accusation.
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no, not the very same reaction at all. in one case the person is angry because they're being shown up for what they are, in the other case they're angry because they're being falsely accused. enormous difference between the two.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Spoony may not mind people being angry at him or disliking him.
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true again, i do what i think's right and i say what i think, regardless of whether it will upset people or decrease my popularity. i think everybody has noticed this by now. you can, at least, credit me with brutal honesty.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
But what he DOES want is for Jelly to give up the a00 names. This can be done either through EA or XWIS intervention (unlikely), or if Jelly himself decides to do so. If Jelly is angry at him, why should he? Even if it is logically the fair thing to do. Emotions decide a fair portion of human action as well.
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hypothetical question for you. when people were demanding a server-side choice of the pointsfix or not, and if we (TT) decided to refuse this because we were angry at being asked, would you be saying "well, if TT are angry at you, why should they give you this?"
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
(This paragraph is entirely my hypothesis) Spoony may have directed the bulk of his replies to the Jelly community, and not Jelly personally. But whether or not he has directly angered Jelly himself, I think it is possible that every reply Spoony makes to a Jelly community member subconsciously angers Jelly himself.
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well, for quite a while i was a jelly community member; i've donated to the server a few times, i played there a lot, i used to be a moderator, i was there when it very first started, i led the jelly team in quite a few community matches. and yet when i'm the one under attack for no reason (i'll give you two examples, 1. two moderators publicly assert that i cheat, i say no i don't, i get relentlessly attacked by the community just for saying i didn't cheat. 2. a jelly moderator goes to incredible lengths to lie to everybody to slander my reputation at clanwars, for the sole and specific reason that he hates the pointsfix and he wants to make the official ladder look bad somehow) - when this is done to me, is jelly angry? if he was he didn't show it.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Firstly, the *JELLY* community bears Jelly's own name. Secondly, Jelly likely knows and thinks well of some of the community members that have been offended by Spoony, and humans tend to stand up for their friends instinctively.
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see above for the flaw
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Thirdly, Spoony makes a few statements that seem to generalize the Jelly community, of which Jelly himself is a part of. (/hypothesis)
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generalisation is not always unreasonable.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Spoony, you could have discussed this privately with Jelly first. I believe that one big reason why Jelly is angry with you is because you chose to discuss this matter with massive publicity. I dont know what kind of relationship the two of you have in renegade/real life. But surely it is possible to be a little accomodating on your side? If it was really important to you that the issue be publicised so that public scrutiny can ensure it's not a shady deal behind closed doors, you could have first privately persuaded Jelly to the point where he would be prepared to come out on your side OUT OF GOODWILL when you eventually went public. You could then have all the public scrutiny you wanted.
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I never used this as a defence during the pointsfix debates.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
You talk about TT having been the 'better man' in the pointsfix debates. I don't know, I wasn't there. Why don't you be an even better man by not trying to rub this into your opponents?
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This is yet another example of someone asking "why is spoony trying to do Y" when spoony is actually doing X. the question is meaningless. ask me why i'm doing X and then the question is worth answering.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Is the Renegade community, or defending your logic and yourself against character assasination attempts, more important?
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It sounds like you're saying: when people lie to make you look bad, don't defend yourself because if you do, you'll offend your accusers and this will damage the Renegade community.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Stop creating so much anger, so that people can think with logic instead of emotions.
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firstly, if somebody can't think with logic then i put it to you that it's their own problem. secondly, most of the time the anger is not justified. again, when several jelly mods publicly asserted that i cheated and i said actually no i didn't, they reacted with anger. when i said i liked the pointsfix and i gave lots of reasons, they reacted with anger. shall i go on?
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
I think its great that you are willing to spend so much effort and time on the Renegade community, doing what you believe to be in its best interests. It's earned my respect, and I wish you good fortune in your endeavours. I offer my opinion and suggestion in hopes that it will expedite your good work.
tl;dr. Spoony, you need to win more hearts and less minds.
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if you strip away the rhetoric you've basically said: when you're attacked, don't defend yourself because if you do you'll anger your accusers. thanks for the advice, but no thanks.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409219 is a reply to message #409195] |
Tue, 03 November 2009 12:34 |
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Altzan
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| Spoony wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 08:12 |
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Many people have posted against Spoony, citing his past behaviour in other debates (the impression I get is that this mostly refers to the pointfix debates) as a reason why his opinion should not be considered.
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and since I keep asking what i've actually done wrong in these past debates and nobody can answer, i hope you can see it for the bullshit cop-out it is.
excuse me, but i never refused to consider anybody's opinion on the pointsfix NO MATTER HOW pathetically they acted.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
However, Spoony's reactions to such posts have been consistent. When he feels that someone has wrongly accused him, he responds immediately and heatedly to defend himself and demonstrate his displeasure. Occasionally, he will also send his opponents messages with sacarstic and scathing tones (examples would include sentences ending with 'eh?' , 'hmmm?', 'excuse me, but no'). He is entitled to do all this. It's his personal opinion and personal style of argument.
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all true, and i don't see what's wrong with defending myself when i'm attacked.
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I think you just answered your own question.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409263 is a reply to message #409195] |
Tue, 03 November 2009 18:59 |
tanzying
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Recruit |
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| Quote: |
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
People do not appreciate being called appaling, ridiculous, despicable, liars, [insert negative term here], whether they have actually been so or not.
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you lose me at "whether they have actually been so or not". wtf? listen to what you're saying. you're saying if someone cheats or whatever, you shouldn't say so in case you hurt their feelings because then you'll be the bad guy?
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I said "whether they have actually been so or not" because you have used these negative adjectives to describe some of the jelly members in previous debates. Since I have never read these other debates, I simply put that in to show that I am unable to judge whether such descriptions are justified.
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| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
the very same reaction that I believe Spoony experiences when he is charged by what he views as an unfair accusation.
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no, not the very same reaction at all. in one case the person is angry because they're being shown up for what they are, in the other case they're angry because they're being falsely accused. enormous difference between the two.
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Fine. Anyway, both parties are angry. Whatever reasons may cause this are not my point. My point is the fact that both are angry. But I'm fine with retracting the above quote if you don't like your reason being compared to theirs.
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| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
But what he DOES want is for Jelly to give up the a00 names. This can be done either through EA or XWIS intervention (unlikely), or if Jelly himself decides to do so. If Jelly is angry at him, why should he? Even if it is logically the fair thing to do. Emotions decide a fair portion of human action as well.
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hypothetical question for you. when people were demanding a server-side choice of the pointsfix or not, and if we (TT) decided to refuse this because we were angry at being asked, would you be saying "well, if TT are angry at you, why should they give you this?"
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In this hypothetical scenario, TT are being angry to the point of not being able to reason with them. If my goal was to show the public that TT is wrong in acting this way, I would have used logical reasoning on a public forum to do it.
If, however, my goal was to STOP TT from acting this way, and anger has influenced them to the point where they will not change their mind after they have been publicly, logically proven wrong, then yes, I would be working on reducing TT's anger. and yes, I would tell those with similar intent that "Well, TT are anrgy at us, they won't be giving us this because of that.' And I would add, "Let's work on getting TT less angry at us so that hopefully they'll listen to reason".
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| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 07:44 |
Spoony, you could have discussed this privately with Jelly first. I believe that one big reason why Jelly is angry with you is because you chose to discuss this matter with massive publicity. I dont know what kind of relationship the two of you have in renegade/real life. But surely it is possible to be a little accomodating on your side? If it was really important to you that the issue be publicised so that public scrutiny can ensure it's not a shady deal behind closed doors, you could have first privately persuaded Jelly to the point where he would be prepared to come out on your side OUT OF GOODWILL when you eventually went public. You could then have all the public scrutiny you wanted.
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I never used this as a defence during the pointsfix debates.
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I never said you did. I haven't read them.
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true again, i do what i think's right and i say what i think, regardless of whether it will upset people or decrease my popularity. i think everybody has noticed this by now. you can, at least, credit me with brutal honesty.
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firstly, if somebody can't think with logic then i put it to you that it's their own problem. secondly, most of the time the anger is not justified. again, when several jelly mods publicly asserted that i cheated and i said actually no i didn't, they reacted with anger. when i said i liked the pointsfix and i gave lots of reasons, they reacted with anger. shall i go on?
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if you strip away the rhetoric you've basically said: when you're attacked, don't defend yourself because if you do you'll anger your accusers. thanks for the advice, but no thanks.
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If someone couldn't think logically and got himself into a situation I didn't care about, I too would say that it's his/her own problem.
However, you are trying to push a few causes here because you care about the community. Your efforts are being hindered due to negative emotional baggage you have with some of its members. Therefore, their problem of being unable to think logically is giving you problems.
You can't expect everyone on the planet to suddenly become a logical person overnight. Leaders in the real world trying to affect change get all sorts of critics too. They take potshots
from the media, public and the like, assaults on their personal credibility etc, and some of these attacks are obviously emotional and completely unreasonable. The good ones don't take the bait. They may have sound logical backing, but if it seems that logic alone will not win their cause, then they don't press it. They negotiate diplomatically and with tact to win emotions over. They work to fill the atmosphere with goodwill and make it more conducive, so that when logic is needed again it is finally listened to.
Of course they are entitled to defend themselves and descend with brutal honesty and condemnations upon people who attack them without logic (unless there is a large enough logical crowd present to shout down the illogical ones, but this is not always present). They would only do this if they didn't care about the larger issue. If they do care, they would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing this.
I never said don't defend yourself at all. I say it is fine to defend yourself, but do it in a less incendiary way. For example:
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and since I keep asking what i've actually done wrong in these past debates and nobody can answer, i hope you can see it for the bullshit cop-out it is.
excuse me, but i never refused to consider anybody's opinion on the pointsfix NO MATTER HOW pathetically they acted.
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It's fine if you think that it is "bullshit cop-out" and that people have been acting "pathetically". But the message could have gotten across equally well without inciting so much backlash if you had said:
"I don't understand what I have been doing wrong in these past debates, no one has clarified this with me so far."
"I am still and will always be open to considering anyone's opinion on the pointfix, provided it is logical."
The relationship between you and Raven seems to have gotten better since the start of this thread. I'm not exactly sure why, but I suspect mutual concessions had something to do with it.
Spoony, voicing your opinion IS NOT WRONG. Defending yourself IS NOT WRONG. Being brutally honest IS NOT WRONG. You are free to do all this and more if you choose.
I'm telling you that I don't think these methods are effective
,insofar as your goal of getting Jelly to give up the a00 nicks is concerned.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409264 is a reply to message #409263] |
Tue, 03 November 2009 19:08 |
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Spoony
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| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 19:59 |
I said "whether they have actually been so or not" because you have used these negative adjectives to describe some of the jelly members in previous debates. Since I have never read these other debates, I simply put that in to show that I am unable to judge whether such descriptions are justified.
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That wasn't really the meat of the statement, was it? You go out of your way to say "people don't appreciate being called such-and-such".
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 19:59 |
Fine. Anyway, both parties are angry. Whatever reasons may cause this are not my point. My point is the fact that both are angry. But I'm fine with retracting the above quote if you don't like your reason being compared to theirs.
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Good.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 19:59 |
If someone couldn't think logically and got himself into a situation I didn't care about, I too would say that it's his/her own problem.
However, you are trying to push a few causes here because you care about the community. Your efforts are being hindered due to negative emotional baggage you have with some of its members. Therefore, their problem of being unable to think logically is giving you problems.
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...which is entirely their fault.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 19:59 |
I never said don't defend yourself at all. I say it is fine to defend yourself, but do it in a less incendiary way. For example:
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the examples you give are several orders of magnitude more civilised than the way i've been treated, and yet who in the equation do you criticise?
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 19:59 |
It's fine if you think that it is "bullshit cop-out" and that people have been acting "pathetically". But the message could have gotten across equally well without inciting so much backlash if you had said:
"I don't understand what I have been doing wrong in these past debates, no one has clarified this with me so far."
"I am still and will always be open to considering anyone's opinion on the pointfix, provided it is logical."
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i've said both these things again and again and again and again, and they still reacted with anger and bile every single time. when you said you hadn't read the pointsfix debates, you certainly spoke true.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 19:59 |
The relationship between you and Raven seems to have gotten better since the start of this thread. I'm not exactly sure why, but I suspect mutual concessions had something to do with it.
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no, it's because he's behaved in a completely different way to everybody else. this is the one and only reason.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409269 is a reply to message #409264] |
Tue, 03 November 2009 21:14 |
tanzying
Messages: 4
Registered: November 2009
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Spoony wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 20:08 |
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 19:59 |
If someone couldn't think logically and got himself into a situation I didn't care about, I too would say that it's his/her own problem.
However, you are trying to push a few causes here because you care about the community. Your efforts are being hindered due to negative emotional baggage you have with some of its members. Therefore, their problem of being unable to think logically is giving you problems.
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...which is entirely their fault.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 19:59 |
I never said don't defend yourself at all. I say it is fine to defend yourself, but do it in a less incendiary way. For example:
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the examples you give are several orders of magnitude more civilised than the way i've been treated, and yet who in the equation do you criticise?
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Perhaps. But it is you, not them, who wants a change in the status quo. If you care so much about this a00 name issue, the onus is on you to go out of your way to engage them.
There are three outcomes to this. Which one do you really want?
1. You decide you have had enough of your opponents' treatment and decide not to care anymore. The a00 names stay with their owner because no one cares anymore.
2. You prove to everyone logically that jelly is being unreasonable in giving the names up, countering every attack launched at you on the way. The a00 names stay with their owner because you have soured relationships too much for them to even consider it.
3. You make an honest, sincere attempt to rebuild ties, persevering in spite of all provocations, calming your opponents to the point where they are again willing to listen to reason. Then, you bring back your logical reasoning, albeit with none of the scathing, sarcastic phrases, and eventually manage to get jelly to give up the names, or at least compromise on the matter.
The current outcome seems to be no. 2. But hey, the future can yet be changed with effort.
And if you happen to be hoping for no. 4, where:
4. You prove to everyone logically that jelly is being unreasonable in giving the names up. Your opponents suddenly have an epiphany where they realize that they have been unreasonable, publicly admit it and apologize to you, and give up the names, just as you think they should have done all along.
...it only requires a little realism and pragmatism to see why this is a bit too much to hope for.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409271 is a reply to message #409269] |
Tue, 03 November 2009 22:26 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 22:14 |
2. You prove to everyone logically that jelly is being unreasonable in giving the names up, countering every attack launched at you on the way. The a00 names stay with their owner because you have soured relationships too much for them to even consider it.
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you were doing so well right up until the point where you said that it was me who "soured the relationship". i've been incredibly civilised and reasonable with the jelly community in the face of unbelievable provocation, and if you don't understand that yet, don't post again until you do.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 22:14 |
3. You make an honest, sincere attempt to rebuild ties, persevering in spite of all provocations, calming your opponents to the point where they are again willing to listen to reason. Then, you bring back your logical reasoning, albeit with none of the scathing, sarcastic phrases, and eventually manage to get jelly to give up the names, or at least compromise on the matter.
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i've spent months and months trying to do that (although this was before i posted about a00), and the vitriol towards me gets more and more intense. again, if you don't understand this, don't post again until you do.
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 22:14 |
4. You prove to everyone logically that jelly is being unreasonable in giving the names up. Your opponents suddenly have an epiphany where they realize that they have been unreasonable, publicly admit it and apologize to you, and give up the names, just as you think they should have done all along.
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one person in the jelly community has done precisely that... you've already mentioned his name.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409288 is a reply to message #409269] |
Wed, 04 November 2009 02:00 |
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reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 23:14 |
Perhaps. But it is you, not them, who wants a change in the status quo. If you care so much about this a00 name issue, the onus is on you to go out of your way to engage them.
There are three outcomes to this. Which one do you really want?
1. You decide you have had enough of your opponents' treatment and decide not to care anymore. The a00 names stay with their owner because no one cares anymore.
2. You prove to everyone logically that jelly is being unreasonable in giving the names up, countering every attack launched at you on the way. The a00 names stay with their owner because you have soured relationships too much for them to even consider it.
3. You make an honest, sincere attempt to rebuild ties, persevering in spite of all provocations, calming your opponents to the point where they are again willing to listen to reason. Then, you bring back your logical reasoning, albeit with none of the scathing, sarcastic phrases, and eventually manage to get jelly to give up the names, or at least compromise on the matter.
The current outcome seems to be no. 2. But hey, the future can yet be changed with effort.
And if you happen to be hoping for no. 4, where:
4. You prove to everyone logically that jelly is being unreasonable in giving the names up. Your opponents suddenly have an epiphany where they realize that they have been unreasonable, publicly admit it and apologize to you, and give up the names, just as you think they should have done all along.
...it only requires a little realism and pragmatism to see why this is a bit too much to hope for.
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I happen to agree with tanzying on most of what he has been saying. My interpretation of what he has been saying can be summarised as the following:
It doesn't matter that you're right (and you are right), and you've proved your point. They're the guys with the upper hand, so try not to piss them off. What would you prefer, acknowledgement that you're right, or the actual nicknames?
While getting both should not be too much to ask for, it seems unlikely to happen.
However, tanzying seems to be saying this because he believes that if you change tactics now, there is a chance you'll get the nicks. I seriously doubt this, and I think that tanzying is either naive to believe that, or just really hopefull.
Having said this, tanzying has not realised that there is a 5th option, or cared not to mention it.
This being that someone gets awfully pissed off with the boring pointless debating, knows that Spoony is right and decides to take matters into there own hands.
There are a number of ways to remove the Jelly servers from the top of the list, but they are all dirty tactics.
There are several people capable of doing this, and quite a few of them are actually in the TT group.
I think Jelly should remember this when he tells us all to fuck off, and watch his mouth.
It's extremely annoying to witness this injustice, being fully capable of changing the situation, but sitting on your hands because you do not wish to sink to that level.
To be fair it would probably result in server warfare if it went ahead, but still, it wouldn't hurt for Jelly to be civil at least and bare this in mind when he runs his mouth.
I think it's shown a great amount of patience and depth of character from the people capable of doing this, to sit on there hands and not follow through.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409289 is a reply to message #409288] |
Wed, 04 November 2009 02:07 |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| reborn wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 03:00 |
but they are all dirty tactics.
There are several people capable of doing this, and quite a few of them are actually in the TT group.
I think Jelly should remember this when he tells us all to fuck off, and watch his mouth.
it wouldn't hurt for Jelly to be civil at least and bare this in mind when he runs his mouth.
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| reborn wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 03:00 |
I think it's shown a great amount of patience and depth of character from the people capable of doing this
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Yes, it has.
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409303 is a reply to message #409288] |
Wed, 04 November 2009 03:42 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| reborn wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 10:00 |
| tanzying wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 23:14 |
Perhaps. But it is you, not them, who wants a change in the status quo. If you care so much about this a00 name issue, the onus is on you to go out of your way to engage them.
There are three outcomes to this. Which one do you really want?
1. You decide you have had enough of your opponents' treatment and decide not to care anymore. The a00 names stay with their owner because no one cares anymore.
2. You prove to everyone logically that jelly is being unreasonable in giving the names up, countering every attack launched at you on the way. The a00 names stay with their owner because you have soured relationships too much for them to even consider it.
3. You make an honest, sincere attempt to rebuild ties, persevering in spite of all provocations, calming your opponents to the point where they are again willing to listen to reason. Then, you bring back your logical reasoning, albeit with none of the scathing, sarcastic phrases, and eventually manage to get jelly to give up the names, or at least compromise on the matter.
The current outcome seems to be no. 2. But hey, the future can yet be changed with effort.
And if you happen to be hoping for no. 4, where:
4. You prove to everyone logically that jelly is being unreasonable in giving the names up. Your opponents suddenly have an epiphany where they realize that they have been unreasonable, publicly admit it and apologize to you, and give up the names, just as you think they should have done all along.
...it only requires a little realism and pragmatism to see why this is a bit too much to hope for.
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I happen to agree with tanzying on most of what he has been saying. My interpretation of what he has been saying can be summarised as the following:
It doesn't matter that you're right (and you are right), and you've proved your point. They're the guys with the upper hand, so try not to piss them off. What would you prefer, acknowledgement that you're right, or the actual nicknames?
While getting both should not be too much to ask for, it seems unlikely to happen.
However, tanzying seems to be saying this because he believes that if you change tactics now, there is a chance you'll get the nicks. I seriously doubt this, and I think that tanzying is either naive to believe that, or just really hopefull.
Having said this, tanzying has not realised that there is a 5th option, or cared not to mention it.
This being that someone gets awfully pissed off with the boring pointless debating, knows that Spoony is right and decides to take matters into there own hands.
There are a number of ways to remove the Jelly servers from the top of the list, but they are all dirty tactics.
There are several people capable of doing this, and quite a few of them are actually in the TT group.
I think Jelly should remember this when he tells us all to fuck off, and watch his mouth.
It's extremely annoying to witness this injustice, being fully capable of changing the situation, but sitting on your hands because you do not wish to sink to that level.
To be fair it would probably result in server warfare if it went ahead, but still, it wouldn't hurt for Jelly to be civil at least and bare this in mind when he runs his mouth.
I think it's shown a great amount of patience and depth of character from the people capable of doing this, to sit on there hands and not follow through.
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Yay, a post which is actually:
A) Readable, not a post with 100's bits of quotes
B) Makes sense.
C) Is rather unbalanced, as it names Spoony's faults as well as Jelly's faults
Now hope that at least one of those two sees the problem we have here.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409306 is a reply to message #409288] |
Wed, 04 November 2009 04:46 |
tanzying
Messages: 4
Registered: November 2009
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| reborn wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 03:00 |
My interpretation of what he has been saying can be summarised as the following:
It doesn't matter that you're right (and you are right), and you've proved your point. They're the guys with the upper hand, so try not to piss them off. What would you prefer, acknowledgement that you're right, or the actual nicknames?
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This is correct.
| reborn wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 03:00 |
However, tanzying seems to be saying this because he believes that if you change tactics now, there is a chance you'll get the nicks. I seriously doubt this, and I think that tanzying is either naive to believe that, or just really hopeful.
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This is also correct. I realise that both my scenarios in which the a00 nicks end up being given up, specifically outcomes 3 and 4, require large amounts of faith/naivete/wishful thinking to believe in. I state my preference for outcome 3 because I have much greater faith in Spoony's capabilities to rebuild relationships if he tries than in the Jelly community, the majority of whom seem content to hurl attack after attack at him (Raven is a very pleasant exception). Of course, Spoony has also been returning counterattack after counterattack, but I have a feeling that if a reconciliation does happen, Spoony will have been the one that started it off. He is already capable of impeccable logic. Why shouldn't I believe in him more?
| reborn wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 03:00 |
Having said this, tanzying has not realised that there is a 5th option, or cared not to mention it.
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This is the option of brute force. Reborn is right that this outcome would be the final nail in the coffin of Renegade community relationships. I don't want to steer matters onto a path so severely detrimental to all involved. But I will acknowledge this possibility and echo Reborn's praise for the restraint of the powers-that-be.
| reborn wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 03:00 |
While getting both should not be too much to ask for
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I wholeheartedly agree with this as well.
I am going to be clear on my motives for entering this discussion.
I care for the Renegade community a little. I think it would be nice if the community became better. I like Spoony's idea of giving control of the a00 names to an impartial authority, who then decides how to distribute them while maintaining transparency in the process. To me, Spoony's proposition makes perfect logical sense.
I have not read the pointsfix debates, so I can't yet make a final judgement on it. But I do know that I don't really like the old point system, and I have a hunch that the pointsfix is something that I will strongly favour once I know more about its details.
I think Spoony has come up with great ideas which will benefit the community if implemented. He is capable of solid logic and has the tenacity to push his causes. He could do the community a whole lot of good.
Why don't his causes succeed, then? Because of his 'brutal honesty'. Because of the way he doesn't care whether he steps on any toes, just so long as his logic is sound. To be fair, it is also because a large amount of people have a invalid prejudice against his person. But the first two factors, if not the direct cause of the last one, are certainly very much involved.
It gets to the point where every cause Spoony is publicly affiliated with suffers for it, because whenever he tries to advocate one, a group of people hell-bent on opposing him show up and use inappropriate tactics to stall discussion. I don't have a problem with people thinking Spoony is terrible, as that's their own opinion, but how is it in any way related to whether Jelly should or should not give up the names?
I do not think people should be using such inappropriate tactics. But I know that such people will always be around, and nothing I or anyone else can do will make them go away. Spoony telling them that it is 'entirely their fault' certainly won't make them disappear out of embarrassment.
The presence of such people is an inherent constraint in the Renegade community (in fact, in most communities). The reason I'm posting all this is that I hope I will be able to persuade Spoony into working around this constraint rather than spend all day lambasting its existence, considering it beneath his notice, and believing it should and will go away by itself. I hope that Spoony will be able to initiate negotiations rather than confrontations in the future by ditching his undoubtedly civilized but still incredibly acidic manner of responding to his opponents.
I feel a need here to re-emphasize that I don't think Spoony's personal style of argument is wrong, and therefore he cannot/shouldn't use it. I think Spoony's style is ineffective given the current community climate, and everyone would be better off if he didn't use it.
As I said before, I believe Spoony can truly do some good for renegade. I'm posting in the hopes that he will realise a better way to do it.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409308 is a reply to message #405549] |
Wed, 04 November 2009 05:17 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9730
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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| Quote: |
This is the option of brute force. Reborn is right that this outcome would be the final nail in the coffin of Renegade community relationships.
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To be frank, I don't see many Renegade community relationships, especially not with the Jelly community who seem to from my POV have retired completely from the other communities (including different irc server, little presence at this forum, little direct interaction with most other communities).
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
[Updated on: Wed, 04 November 2009 05:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #409334 is a reply to message #409308] |
Wed, 04 November 2009 09:05 |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Goztow wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 14:17 |
| Quote: |
This is the option of brute force. Reborn is right that this outcome would be the final nail in the coffin of Renegade community relationships.
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To be frank, I don't see many Renegade community relationships, especially not with the Jelly community who seem to from my POV have retired completely from the other communities (including different irc server, little presence at this forum, little direct interaction with most other communities).
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Where do you base your information off of? We're usually the ones scheduling comm matches with other communities. IRC wise, we're linked to 2 other renegade communities (n00bless and Exodus).. the only bit remotely accurate is little presence on these forums.
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
[Updated on: Wed, 04 November 2009 09:06] Report message to a moderator |
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